Modification of bullets to penetrate body Armor

[Zyklon_B]

Most handgun bullets (not all) will not penetrate common body armor or Kevlar helmets. Is there any way to modify existing bullets to penetrate high levels of body armor without having to modify the gun?

I have seen .224 Bozz and many other high-speed caliber conversions for existing weapons, but I want to look at this more from an ammunition perspective then weapon modification. Since most conversions mean enlarging or elongating the weapon to almost above concealable standards.

Would explosive filled tip bullets just explode on impact, splattering on the target, not penetrating? Or would they actually be able to get through and do any real damage?

Thanks ahead of time for your responses.

[nbk2000]

Recently, there was a notice released by the NIJ (National Institute of Justice) that certain (unnamed) frangible bullets are capable of penetrating level IIA vests, the most common worn by pork.

There's two types of frangibles; Compressed Powder & Shot

The compressed powder type is made from copper, zinc, titanium, or other non-toxic heavy metal and compressed under great pressure to cause cold flowing of the metal. This causes it to retain a solid shape until the shock of impact against a hard surface breaks the bonds of the powder particles, disintegrating the bullet.

This type is typically called "green" ammo, or "frangible training" ammo since it contains no toxic heavy metals like lead or bismith (hence the enviro-freak term "green"), or for use at close range against metal targets that would otherwise be very dangerous to use regular ammo against because of the richochet hazard.

The other type, shot, is made from very small shot (like #12) being contained within a thin copper jacket. This jacket ruptures on impact, releasing the shot to disperse inside of a target. This is typical of Mag-Safe and Glasers.

I used to have a book by Lee Lapin called "Ninja 1990" (K3wL-ish title, but good info). They had used Glasers against ballistic vests and the first shot would be stopped, but the damaged caused by the pellets tearing and bunching up the fibers would allow any subsequent bullet impacts in the same area to pass through unhindered.

Obviously it'd be difficult to hit a person in the same area as a previous hit unless you're using full-auto. But, for up close and unfriendly personal conflict resolution, full-auto is a good thing...IF you can control it and not spray wildly.

Anyways, I'm subscribed to the bulletin, so I'll eventually find out what the bullets are and post that info.

As for explosive ammo, a handgun bullet is too tiny to carry any sizeable amount of explosive. And, if it did, it'd explode on impact, effectively turning into a cloud of fragments which the vest would readily stop.

It may be better to include a capsule of a highly toxic inhalational poison like sarin to the base of the bullet. On impact with a vest, the capsule would be ruptured as the bullet deformed against the vest, releasing the sarin in the vicinity of the targets face. More likely than not, the target would get a whiff of it and either die or be sufficiently impaired as to be easily killed.

If you could make a delayed impact fuse for an AP bullet, then you could possibly penetrate the armor and have the bullet explode inside the target, causing much greater injury than the clean hole AP bullets produce.

[Fl4PP4W0k]

Hmm.. What about the known usage of Teflon coated ammunition?

I have seen cans of spray on teflon for coating frypans (dont laugh) etc... I believe one is called Cammie 2000? Having a small amount of teflon applied to a small, high velocity round such as the Winchester .22 Mag (which can be bought in hi-cap pistols) or possibly the 5.7x28 military round - if you can find a gun that uses that round \ a gun store that stocks them.
Im not sure if coating bullets with teflon would stuff up the bore of a firearm... trial and error I guess :)

Small calibre, high velocity, teflon coated and semi auto would be a quick way to dispense with lightweight body armor.

Does the usual Mr Plod who's on the beat wear straigh kevlar? Or is there a steel \ titanium plate or something aswell... If thats the case (propper body armor) would a small, high speed teflon coated round be able to penetrate?

Could always get yourself a .50AE pistol and (somehow?) make your own depleted uranium slugs :p

Is it really that hard to hit them in the face?
Practice enough... you could probably get that good.

<small>[ December 15, 2002, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Fl4PP4W0k ]</small>

[Flake2m]

Dosen't the calibre of the bullet also help detirmine whether the bullet is capable of penetrating armor?
A pistol such as the Five seveN is quite good at penetrating body armor as the bullets are small (5.7x28mm hence the name Fiven SeveN. The bullets also dont over penetrate.

Though I doubt you'd be able to get hold of a Five seveN.

Most armor penetrating bullets are quite small so they travel faster. Armor piercing bullets are also coated with teflon for less resistance.

[nbk2000]

A teflon coating will actually reduce vest penetration by 20% or more. The purpose for teflon coating is to allow the bullet to "grab" into angled surfaces like car doors and windows that it'd otherwise richochet off of.

It also increases penetration of metal, but decreases penetration of vest weaves.

A small, pointy, hard, and fast object is going to have a much easier time of penetrating between the weaves of a vest. That's why the FN and BOZ can penetrate vests so well. Small caliber rifle bullets of hard material being acccelerated to high speed.

The vast majority of people wearing vests don't have any type of hardplate like steel or titanium, so that's not a problem. Perhaps the swat team or military, but not the street cops.

There's an ammo called "accelerator" that uses a 12 guage shotgun to fire an AP .50 bullet via sabot at almost 4,000FPS. That'd quite handily penetrate virtually any vest out there.

I remember seeing an article a long time ago about a pistol that fired a dart-like projectile from a modified revolver. The "dart" contained an explosive charge and would blow a fist sized hole through 3/8" steel plate. Something like this would render armor moot since the blast alone would kill the target, regardless of any penetration effect.

A shotgun grenade would have the same effect. The second generation design has a trumpet-style shaped charge effect. The problem I'm having is the fusing.

The problem with any non-explosive penetration is that the hole would have to intersect with a vital structure like brain/spine/heart to be rapidly fatal. It doesn't do you any good if the guy dies 3 days after having blown your head off, now does it?

Typical AP ammo leaves a neat little hole through the body, not causing much damage in the meantime. The LA bankrobbers used AP ammo in their shootout and, while wounding 16 people, didn't manage to kill anyone but themselves.

Though, if custom AP ammo had a weak cannelure, then the forward part could be a hard penetrator, while the base would break off during penetration, to follow through the hole and lodge inside the target, depositing a poisonous payload. :)

If you do a search on "boz" here at the Forum, you'll find a previous thread that discussed this. I found the CZ-52 7.62x25mm pistol as surplus for $175 on-line. This, combined with the right ammo, is on par to the BOZ or FN for penetration ability.

<small>[ December 15, 2002, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Fl4PP4W0k]

I saw some .38 special bullets a while back, that had a triangular copper nose... I think they were intended to 'slice through tough flesh' or something *cough*

Would something like this design be useful? Copper would probably be a little soft... but if there was a hard, pointed, stainless steel(or Ti) 'nose' to the bullet - with a lead rear section - would that be of any greater detriment to the recipient?

ie: steel penetrates the armor, nose of bullet is forced back into standard lead round - thus lead expands. Expanded lead slug makes its way through the hole that the initial point has made, and goes smashing into bone \ tissue making a nice messy wound.

The hole that the point makes would be smaller than the slug, though the hole could be enlarged due to the fact that the plating has been weakened at the point of impact?

Otherwise, have a deliberately weakened steel backing to the round. A standard bullet look to it, though internally has weak-ish superglue joins. Say 8 fragments of steel joined together. So the 'penetrator' makes a nice hole, and at the same time the rear of the bullet breaks into peices embedding all the little chunks into the tissue.

I thought teflon was used due to its slippery nature... to easily penetrate objects, and go deeper into the body. Meh.

[Zyklon_B]

There is a company called Corbin <a href="http://www.corbins.com/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.corbins.com/index.htm</a> That sells the materials to swage bullets.

<img src="http://www.corbins.com/images/swc7-lg.jpg" alt=" - " />

The third bullet from the left, the conical shaped projectile combined with their equipment to make a solid copper bullet would probably lend to a high threat level bullet.

I am guessing it would also be possible to produce such a projectile in a lathe. The Ideal would be to lathe the center out of solid Tungsten or high carbon steel, and have a copper band around it to protect the barrel from wear.

The calibers I was thinking of where more on the lines of common 9mm Luger.

All AP ammo as you said NBK doesn't lend well to "stopping power" when it comes to making any real kills. Adding some form of poison would be nice, but the problems I associate with most poisons is them becoming airborn during firing, killing the shooter.

<small>[ December 15, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Zyklon_B ]</small>

[john_smith]

While we're at it, is a 7.62x25 steel core (not special AP-s, just old Red Army surplus) any good against a class IIIA? I had a dream about being offered an old (illegal) Tokarev lately, and I've also heard about a certain breed of pigs here upgrading to abovementioned body armor standard...

[nbk2000]

Level IIIA? That's very high threat level armor, capable of stopping some rifle bullets. The Tokarev is capable of penetating most vests, but a level IIIA would be border line I'd think. Though solid steel core would penetrate the best.

It's possible to use tungsten powder in swaging, so you could have an extremely hard, and dense, penetrator. And that 3rd stage bullet is indeed of a good geometery to penetrate. Though, if it had a nipple on it, it'd be even better because it'd be a KTW (or THV, forgot which) bullet then.

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

NBK, why is the tokarev illegal? I thought that all handguns were legal (if available for sale) after some 'cooling off' time. from what janes' guns says *looks up in book* it doesn't mention anything about outstanding penetration, (though the reduced cross-sectional profile would lend itself to some increase).

[nbk2000]

Penetration is relative. Compared to battle rifles, it's weak. But, compared to the .3587 or .44, it's stellar. Between the low cross-section, high velocity, and steel core ammo, it's a winner.

And it's not illegal if you live in the right place and have the right forms. However, I've the feeling he lives in either Oz, or britania, neither of which like their surfs to be armed.

Or, he could be like me, and can't legally own a firearm as being a felon. But, like me, he doesn't give a fuck what the law says and is going to get one anyways. :)

[Zyklon_B]

I was wondering if a bullet with a steel blade instead of spike protruding would be any good against soft body armor?

Would there be a safe way to combine armor piercing with a poisonous substance in a safe delivery system? Of course in a bullet a very strong fast acting poison would be required.

Another idea that came to me was drilling the center out of a FMJ, inserting an impact sensitive explosive behind it, and closing the hole with a steel spike. Theoretically on impact the spike would be driven into the explosive causing an explosion that would then send then spike forward into the target.

And would it be possible to create an incendiary handgun bullet? I know the military uses bullets with magnesium that is ignited on impact sending a molten hot glob of metal thru the armor. But to apply that to a smaller bullet such as 9mm or even 45 would seem to be a difficult option. But then again I am sure that having any fire at all occurring on the bulletproof vest will definitely render its wearer occupied and easier for extermination.

[Anthony]

The amount of explosive that can be carried by an average handgun bullet is slight, as has been said. However, I'm wonder if a system similar to that Zyklon has suggested, but with an FMG, the bullet would penetrate due to it's design, but the small explosive charge would cause the bullet to expand, or go like a peeled banana. Giving a much larger would channel.

It'd depend whether there was sufficient delay to allow the bullet to penetrate the vest before expanding.

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

Hmmmm, i get ya' NBK....

I just wish that i could own something in that line of self-defense products, by the way has anyone seen the article in the papers recently about that missing SA-80 from sand-hurst mil academy? apparantly ALL leave was supposed to have been cancelled due to the urgency of the loss (hahahaha as if !) from experience i know exactly how hard it is to keep the blasted thing clean enough to function flawlessly (and yes it can function when clean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> 80 quid for 1 (one) SA-80a1 in near mint condition </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">i can just see that in the local free-ads paper :D

[Fl4PP4W0k]

But would anyone BUY the thing :D

For kevlar, flechettes work fairly well, yes?
What is their performance vs metal plating... would they just break up?

[Bitter]

It might penetrate the vest, but the killing power of a fletchette would be minimal due to its size, unless it hit something vital.

[Fl4PP4W0k]

Thats what full auto is for :p

Keep pummuling them with fast, small sized darts untill they hit something!

Developing on NBK's idea of a toxin \ chemical embedded in the bullet... what about something like Thorazine? Does anyone know how many mg of that stuff you would need to drop someone?

If indeed something like that could work... using a sortof 'super tranquilizer' gun may be effective. High ROF with armor peircing flechettes - each impregnating a nice amount of tranquilizer into their bloodsystem.

A problem would be the large amount of blood loss might 'drain' the chemical from the body. Blech.

Meh... Just have a 10ga round filled with flechettes and aim for the upper body \ head region. Humor ensues. :D

[Zyklon_B]

Flechettes are pretty crummy and would be crap in anything but a smoothbore weapon. Not to mention flechettes are only interesting projectiles when dispenced by and explosive.

[zaibatsu]

How about using the compressed tungsten cut with something like ricin to form a shotgun slug? Or hellebore, which is described (also gives a procedure for extraction) in the crossbow book I borrowed, supposedly it'll drop a deer before it can run a "hundred paces". If you shot someone with one of those, the impact of the slug would either kill them, or the poison would soon after - either way they're fucked :)

[nbk2000]

If you added an organic chemical to a metal powder prior to swaging, it might be decomposed by the many tons of pressure (and ensuing heating) that's needed to solidify the powder. A bit of cyanide powder would be best since it's a fairly sturdy chemical.

A rapid fire flechette gun brings to mind the "Super Nail-Gun" from Quake 1. That's my favorite weapon. :)

Flechettes work best in large numbers, like a cloud of needles. Singles aren't much of anything unless you hit the brain/heart.

[Energy84]

I know this is going somewhat off topic, but the thought just struck me of how easy it would be to get flechettes... Darts. You know, throwing darts. Piss easy to get them and I don't think it would be too hard to get one into a shotgun barrel. All you'd need to do is trim the fins and make a sabot (wood maybe) to fit it. You probably wouldn't want to use lots of powder though (no mags here. field loads only). I'd like to see how the ballistics would be 'cause I bet flechettes would be an ideal round for hunting big game. Just as long as you were a good shot.
Also, I bet you could trim darts up enough to get them to fit paintball gun barrels. More trimming of course, but as long as it's done evenly (all fins trimmed the exact same amount) I bet you'd get some decent accuracy. Wouldn't it be cool to drop a deer with a paintball gun? :p

[Anthony]

Or you could buy actual flechettes by the bag-full online :)

[Fl4PP4W0k]

I thought Ricin took a while to kill? (Yes, it does. NBK) Like some russian guy who was implanted with a couple little balls of it... took a few days or something.

Im not sure if that was the ricin that took the time to kill him - or the delivery method. (It was the ricin. NBK)

The Super Nailgun kicked ass...hehehe

<small>[ December 17, 2002, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Harry]

Somebody been reading PMJB? Article on shotgun slug modification? For you who haven't, the author suggests inserting a high speed drill bit or similar bit into a shotgun slug to increase penetration.

Best way to defeat body armor is with its own design. It's very hot to wear, and in a hot, humid climate, few will want to wear it for an 8 hour shift.

For a pistol capable defeating armor, consider the AMT Automag line. Yes, I know, rare as can be, but those pistols eat some serious ammo--including .30 Carbine. .30 Carbine was a poor rifle round, but is overkill in a pistol. (think about it for a minute.)

Glaser ammo is my preferred frangible. I saw the test reports when it first hit the market. Oh, baby, that did some damage to the Kevlar!

I've heard rumors that brass bullets are banned in the USA now. I picked up some brass-jacketed HP in 9mm in 1996, I haven't seen any since. Brass may be an option for a projectile.

The other best way to defeat body armor is to shoot where it isn't. Face, groin, arms, legs. A frangible slug in any of these areas will severely damage the part. And the face is (more or less) in front of a major nerve trunk (to X-ray the top 2 vertebrae, the patient faces the X-ray tube and opens his mouth wide.)

Remember, we are men. What man can lock, man can unlock.

Harry

[Fl4PP4W0k]

Hmm... I wonder what effect a Glass bullet would have?
Im guessing that it would have very good flesh (possibly kevlar) penetration at close ranges, and shatter upon bone impact - small glass shards cannot be seen on Xray. Nasty.

Due to the lightweight nature of glass, for longer range it would be useless - though close range sounds fun (assuming the use of standard powder load, thus very high velocity).

Armor plating would most likely stop a glass bullet... though I am not certain. Anyone have resources regarding glass\crystal ammunition? I would look on google, though its 3am and i really should sleep :o

I wonder what mess a 10ga round filled with ever so charming flechettes would MAKE if the entire load happened to rendezvous with a hapless individuals face :D

[Fl4PP4W0k]

Oh, BTW, Energy84 - the only way your gonna drop a deer with a paintball gun propelled dart is if you wind up the valve timing, and shoot the poor sucker in the eye\ear from like 2 feet away :p

[Harry]

Zaibatsu, please scan or transcribe the hellebore information. I've been doing some research on the plants, and with plants like that, who needs nerve gas? Does the reference give the Latin name, or just "hellebore"? That is some crazy poison! The extraction may be effective on a single species, as not all contain the same alkaloids.

So, anything you can share about the hellebore extration will be welcome.

Harry

[Anthony]

A glass projectile would lack the toughness or inertia to penetrate hard amour. The effects of a polished glass bullet on kevlar might be interesting though, there being nothing for the kevlar strands to "grab".

I'm also wondering how much more effective a non-rotating projectile would be at penetrating kevlar would be, compared to a standard rotating projectile. A rotating projectile has to force its way through the kevlar weave as well as cutting/breaking any kevlar strands that grab it, and we know that kevlar is very cut/abrasion resistant.

Medieval soft armour consisted of a jacket stuff with lose (wool IIRC) fibres, despite being the cheapest armour available, it proved ery effective at stopping arrows. The rotating arrow head would tangle in the fibres, which gradually brought it to a stop.

In quick tests, I've found that 1/4" of wadded cotton wool will stop a .177 air rifle pellet, which would otherwise penetrate your average reading magazine.

Flak jackets work on a similar principle, often stuffed with lose kevlar fibres.

It all makes me wonder, how much do kevlar vests rely on this "braking" of spinning projectiles to proide protection?

[Arkangel]

When he was about 16, my big brother shot at a car window with a .177 air rifle. It didn't shatter, much to our chagrin, but that was more than made up for by the fact that he then started yelping like a stuck pig.

Why was this? Well, the pellet had deformed against the glass, briefly making the centre molten, and firing a very small, very hot piece of lead back towards him, and penetrating about 3mm into his skin.

Do you think it would be possible to create a similar effect, only firing a slug of lead forwards? If so, it would be highly penetrative, since it would be small, and travelling much faster than the bullet was. I'm thinking a strong, cup shaped base to the bullet, with a soft lead front, shaped a little like the rear of an airgun pellet.

[nbk2000]

It's been said that mercury is capable of defeating a vest.

Not only is it heavier than lead, and thus have greater kinetic energy/wieght, but is also a liquid, thus capable of flowing through the weave of the vest at great speed.

Gallium is a solid below body temperature, but becomes a liquid above/about 90F. Bullets get very hot when fired. Thus, you could have a solid cored jacketed bullet that would than transistion into a liquid cored penetrator after leaving the barrel. This assumes the bullet absorbs enough heat to be capable of liquifying the gallium before impact with the target.

Also, there's a thread in the (tank) armor forum I posted a link to in the relevant section that discusses research the military is conductiong on liquid metal penetrators. There's a company that's developed liquid metal alloys and has a $2million research grant to develop penetrators for tank ammo.

Mind you, it's called liquid metal, but it is actually a solid. The reason it's called "liquid" metal is because the alloys retain the amorphous characteristics of liquids, rather than crystallizing.

They have a demo of a steel ball bouncing for a couple of minutes after being dropped on a liquid metal plate, long after similar balls have long since stopped bouncing off of other metals.

Anyways, read the armor forum. The same principles used to defeat tank armor can be applied to body armor as well. Especially the projectile designs.

[Energy84]

Hmmm, I'm not too sure about that Fl4PP4W0k. I guess I've never really shot a paintball gun, but I have built my own single shot version. I think it would be capable of dropping a deer at 40+ yards with just a steel ball.
But anyways, back to the topic, I think you'd have problems getting a glass projectile to leave the barrel in one piece.
I think you'd have problems getting any ammo to pierce kevlar without either getting military spec ammo (full metal jacket) or making your own. If I had my own lathe, I would try to make a bullet from HSS (High Speed Steel). It's the same stuff used for making drill bits and even the cutters used on metal lathes. Problem then would be getting to cut it but I think that it can be done with carbide tipped cutters.

[john_smith]

This should probably go in the Gun Improvements topic, but WTF...Have there been any known experiments with tapered (squeeze-) bore handgun barrels? Or is there something because of what tapered bores and handguns absolutely won't mix? How critical is the bullet construction for this? A squeeze bore barrel (if it'd work, that is) would certainly be a nice acessory to have :D

[nbk2000]

I've never heard of a squeeze-bore being used on anything smaller than artillery.

The intention behind squeeze-bore was to increase projectile velocity while retaining full caliber. With handguns, that's what +P loading are for.

[spydamonkee]

A 12Ga Sold Slug would do some damage to the wearer of the vest weather it penetrated it or not, the amount of kenetic energy it would transfer would be like getting hit by a train. also im pretty sure the slug doesnt spin and then their is the idea of inserting a small high speed drill bit into the centre.

so would this be the simplist option for defeating someone with High Grade Body Armour or am i way off track?

[Flake2m]

Has anyone ever read the book "the day of the jackal" By Fredrick Forsythe?
In the book it describes the bullets the assasin uses. The bullets have a hole drilled though the middle of them. They then have a drop of mecury added, finally the hole is sealed with lead.

I am not sure if they would penetrate a kevlar vest, but they would be quite nasty.
I think this is how they work:
When the bullet is fired the inertia from the mecury makes it harder to stop. If the bullet stops suddenly the mecury would still want to move so the bullet would shatter, sending mecury and lead into the target.

I also had another idea:
If you have a bullet press and access to mecury, you could freeze some mecury in the shape of a slug and then press it into a casing. When you fire the bullet, it would liquify in flight, because it is denser then lead then it would have more intertia. As NBK said it might flow through the weaving. Also Mecury is quite poisonous so if a person does get shot, they will have a death sentence already because of mercury poisoning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[nbk2000]

Mercury freezes at -40F or less. WAY too cold to be feasible.

The simplist way to defeat someone in body armor is to not use a weapon they're protected against (gun).

A stream of napalm, cloud of HCN, hail of shrapnel, all these will take out a person, no matter what kind of BA they're wearing.

RTPB: Victory through superior firepower

[nbk2000]

To illustrate my earlier post about bullet fragmentation:

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/VestFrags.jpg" alt=" - " />

When a bullet stricks a hard surface, it disintegrates in a virtual cloud of fragments, ranging in size from the microscopic, to pea sized, depending on type/velocity/angle/etc.

Now, if the bullet had a core of a compressed powder poison, or liquid toxin, in its base, when the bullet impacted a vest (especially hard plate), it would disintegrate, releasing the toxin in a little cloud outside of the vest, where it could be inhaled.

Found this info while purusing a russian website.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
The BR-354P (APHV-T) projectile 76,2x385R arrowhead AP projectile is typical for most Russian tungsten carbide core projectiles of WWII.

Very special about this design is the substance that surrounds the core. The front 480.5g tungsten-carbide core and the second 149g hard steel core are surrounded by very toxic mercury-chloride HgCl2 or Hg2Cl2.

This white to gray substance builds small balls of metallic mercury when heated. It was used to securely fix the hard metal cores to the outer shell in the first place.

Second, in the moment of impact, these substances change their chemical and thermodynamic properties and act like a liquid lubricant with high density and viscosity under the energetic shock of impact. This helps the cores to separate smoothly from the outer shell.

The third, and most welcomed effect, is the highly toxic nature of the HgCl2 and Hg2Cl2. These are very toxic in their solid property (0.2-0.4g fatal dose), but when they evaporate in the heat as the core is penetrating, they form a very toxic cloud of mercury vapors inside the hit vehicle, killing or severely damaging the health of the crew.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">So perhaps you would want to make a slug of compressed mercuric chloride, instead of only tungsten. It'd still be very dense, could have a tunsten penetrator core, and be lethally toxic as well. :D

<small>[ December 19, 2002, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Zyklon_B]

Is there anywhere mercuric chloride can be bought? How about manufacturing the chemical?

[nbk2000]

Just rub metallic mercury from switchs with table salt in a mortar and pestle till it forms a solid. Then subliminate at low heat to collect the pure material. You can find details in Kurt Saxons "Chemistry like Great-Grandad used to do it" (or something similar) on the FTP.

[Charlie Workman]

If you've got a lathe, you can turn steel bullets of a diameter slightly smaller than the groove diameter of the barrel. Then wrap teflon pipe sealing tape around the base of the bullet until you reach bore diameter. It should work in the same manner as the old paper patched bullets used by early target shooters. I was thinking you could also try heating the steel part of the bullet up with a high wattage soldering iron and melt-bond the teflon coating. Don't know if you can get a consistent thickness, but I figure it's at least worth a try. I've long suspected that the teflon coating on the KTW bullets was only to protect the barrel from the steel core. The tip could be a simple cone, like the old Remington "Highway Master" bullets. These were the first intentional armor piercing pistol rounds first made in the 30's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Charlie Workman ]</small>

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Be careful if you buy HgCl2. Its not only on the DEA list of watched chemicals, its on the special surveillance list. Used to manufacture drugs.

Heres a good link on making HgCl2 <a href="http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/mercurychloride.html" target="_blank">http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/mercurychloride.html</a>

[nbk2000]

There's good reason for wanting to know how to make AP ammo.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/fmas.jpg" alt=" - " />

This is the future. Piggies armored, literally, head to toe with IIIA armor that'll stop anything short of a main battle rifle.

Sure, the military gets first dibs on this stuff, but it won't take long to trickle down to the street pork.

If only my heros (LA Bank Robbers) had this kind of armor. Though I think whoever makes this stuff got the idea from my heros since THEY were covered almost head to toe in armor years before this stuff came out. :)

[nbk2000]

From a PDF called "An Overview of Novel Penetrator Technology".

"Research indicates that important characteristics of a penetrator are its length and density."

The longer, and heavier, the better. As the length to diameter ratio increases, the penetration ability increases. But the increase is non-linear, rather it's greater. So, a penetrator that it twice as long goes more than twice as deep.

Also, round isn't the only shape useful for penetrators.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> The main benefit of the novel penetrators examined might be that their increased stiffness affords some resistance to the lateral forces applied to the penetrator by oblique or reactive armor targets.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/penetrator_geometry.gif" alt=" - " />

As with the H-rod, it is expected that an equal-mass, equal-outer-diameter cruciform or triform rod would outperform a solid, circular cross-section rod of the same material in terms of RHA penetration at high velocity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">This would be useful when engaging enemy armor at oblique angles, such as when they're prone or at at an angle. Whereas the normal bullet might richochet off without penetration or injury, the shape of these penetrators lets them "dig" into the armor, without breaking up.

They still come to a sharp point for penetration, but the body is geometric for rigidity.

In order to be able to penetrate high level armor with a handgun caliber, you may have to resort to a saboted long-rod tungsten/uranium penetrator, similar to that used by tanks.

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[xoo1246]

<img src="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/bullets.jpg" alt=" - " />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> "Another idea that came to me was drilling the center out of a FMJ, inserting an impact sensitive explosive behind it, and closing the hole with a steel spike. Theoretically on impact the spike would be driven into the explosive causing an explosion that would then send then spike forward into the target."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">The same idea came to me.

If i remember it correctly the mentionend percussion mixture can be pressed to different densities giving it different properties(sensivity). I don't know if it's suitable.

Care would have to be taken so that the accelerating rod will not set of the primer mix and at the same time making the bullet sensitive enough.

The other design makes use of the casing allowing a long penetrator rod. Don't know how stable it would be in flight.
If a non circular penetrator were used, the remaning space in the bullet(since you will most likely drill a hole for it) could be filled with mercury, incendiary, explosive or poison.

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Explosives in bullets should be avoided. They can carry only a miniscule payload, are no more injurous than a hollowpoint bullet of the same caliber, and are likely to explode in the barrel, injuring you more than the intended target.

The soft bullet around the rod would would flatten on impact, squeezing itself tightly around the rod, inhibiting penetration. Or, if it was hard enough to resist flattening, it would present a much larger surface area of resistance than the rod alone.

In order to work properly, a rod must be fired from a NON-rifled barrel. Any errors in axial alingment would be greatly amplified by the very high rotational forces exerted by rifling on a projectile. Bullets spin at over 100,000RPM.

This is why tank guns are smooth bore. In our case, using a geometric penetrator would simply the task since the shape would act like natural fins, saving the added effort of machining them.

Since tungsten and uranium are rather exotic, you could use steel. I've seen the above mentioned shapes stocked in industrial supply catalogs, so that's a ready source. After proper hardening, they'd be ready for use in penetrators.

Plastic sabots are available in many calibers. Adapting them to firmly hold a penetrators during acceleration, while still being capable of smooth seperation right out the barrel, may be a bit more difficult.

You'd want to use as powerful a powder load as your gun could withstand since increased velocity increases penetration. And you'll need every bit of speed to compensate for the lack of DU/W in your penetrator.

I doubt one would be able to coat a penetrator with any kind of toxin or poison. It'd either be destroyed on firing from the intense heat of the propellant gases, or rubbed off during penetration of the vest.

[xoo1246]

The question is, what is the targets? Armored vests, armored vehicles?
And at what range? Is the ammunition supposed to be used in large rifles or handguns, etc.

This is not my feild of knowledge, but if you used a hollowpoint bullet where the hollow diameter is larger than rod(in the front) wouldn't the bullet mushroom, thus not squeezing itseld around the rod(it would still lower speed compared to if the rod was free flying, but it allows you to use a normal bullet as a vehicle).

And maybe using groves in the rod would allow a poison to follow the rod, maybe not the most sensitive organic ones but still.

Tungsten powder seems to cost around 11 $/100g from a search at google. The problem seems to be that the powder when it impacts must fracture into medium sized fragments for good penetration.

Also, if the penetrator doesn't tumble or travel at sufficent speed. It has low stopping power.
Maybe a shotgun would be suitable for your type of sabots?
And maybe a hollow projectile could be used, thin walled pipe with sharp edges, cutting through the kevlar fibers.

Well, well, I don't know. But I do know that there are alot of patents on the subjects.

<small>[ December 20, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[Zyklon_B]

When I started this thread this is what I was thinking:

Weapon: Handgun
Caliber: 9mm to 45 ACP, not 44 Mag or 50 AE
Range: Maximum 25 yards
Target: Human, light body armor, no steel plate.

Now about the bullet squeezing into the steel rod, that can be easily avoided by making sure the is a rim around the entrance of the steel spike that would allow the steel spike to move forward while the outside copper lead are pealed back by the vest. This effect can be further increased by pre-made cuts in the bullet that will allow the bullet itself to rip apart on pre-determined lines.

You can see this effect in Federal Hydra-Shok bullets:

<img src="http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/images/45ACP%20Fed%20230gr%20HSHP%20G30.jpg" alt=" - " />

If you notice in the above bullets, a post is standing up out of the center of the bullet, while the rest of the bullet has pealed back.

[nbk2000]

There's a problem with that though.

If the penetrator is still attached to the bullet for it's entire flight, it's losing critical velocity because of drag from the bullet.

A penetrator has to be as aerodynamic as possible to maintain as much kinetic energy as possible. And the energy the propellant expends to accelerate that lead mass up to speed would have been better spent in accelerating the penetrator a few extra hundred FPS.

And, if the bullet was holding the bullet until impact, when it started to break apart, might it not cause a skewing of the penetrator? This would decrease penetration.

The metal molybdenum acts like a lubricant under pressure, so coating a penetrator with this may increase penetration against metal hard plate. It's readily available as a anti-fouling coating material for bullets.

[SMAG 12B/E5]

Please excuse an interjection by an old fart... A very successful method of producing excellant penatrators with repeatable and reliable characteristics is by obtaining an inexpensive used turrent lathe with suitable collets. Design the appropriate size sharpe-nosed, undersized projectile (allowing for a crimped or swadged copper or brass jacket). The projo is turned from drill rod, which will take an excellant heat treatment. The projo is turned, heat treated, jacketed and sized. Hard brass projectiles without jackets are successful against lower level vests. The tooling is simple, the materials are very available and the processing time is short.
These rounds may be loaded "hotter" because of their lighter weight.
These projectiles may also be saboted for over-caliber use.
Note: If the use of "rotating bands" instead of jackets is desirable, knurl the bottom of each band groove to prevent the bands from seperating from the projectile while in the rifling.

[redbull]

Im suprised no one had some up with this answer before... I took a look
at how conventional steel core AP ammo was made. It's just a steel
insert... If someone took some .380 Hollowpoint and drilled the bullet to
accept a 1/4 or 3/8 inch steel ball (sling shot ammo from walmart) and dropped it into the hole and covered it up by hammering lead back over the
bullet and sealing the steel ball inside the hollowpoint... you should be done?
I also had the idea of using epoxy / JB Weld or similar to hold the steel ball
in place and when it hits the target the bullet will seperate... the steel ball
will go through the kevlar and the lead portion of the bullet will give the
necessary mass to push the steel ball through the kevlar. I made both but
never tested them because I don't want to ruin a perfectly good and
expensive vest testing them out. BTW.. E-bay is a great place to get
used kevlar vests... Kevlar dosent degrade (if you take care of it) and you
can get "expired" vests for reasonable prices... 100-200 bucks instead of
500 and better for new vests.

Additionally... there is a book from Uncle Fester... its called vest busters and
it covers making steel rods into bullets with a lathe and coating them with
teflon so they dont eat your barrel. Once you get an undersized bullet you
acid etch and then dunk and bake your new AP bullets. I don't know if this
is on the FTP site or not... let me know if you guys want a copy... it might
take a day or two to get the scanner up and running and to find the book.

I greatly welcome inupt on wether the steel ball method would work,
if so you can have AP ammo quick and cheap :)

ALSO.... NBK2000 if you dont mind the inquiry... what were you busted for?
Why not make an 80% reciever... you can get a 1911 frame for like $150 and
complete it yourself by cutting the slide rails... of course you have to buy
the rest of the parts yourself so it will cost a couple hundred....

[tdog49]

redbull,
this solution has been proposed and discussed before. You can search for it but I believe the thread (at least the one I was involved with) was lost in the shutdown.

Right now, a very inexpensive and easy option (at least for those of us in the states) is to obtain a CZ 52 pistol chambered for 7.62 x 25. Then buy a lot of .223 Timbs. This is a 7.62x25 cartridge that has a 50gr .223 bullet saboted into it. Velocity is over 2000 fps and compares favorably with the .224 boaz w/o the LEO only restrictions.
pistol=$150 at most
ammo=$35 for 50 cartridges
both prices are retail

[Jacks Complete]

redbull,

Kevlar doesn't degrade? Where did you hear that - the used vest salesman trying to sell you a ten year old vest for $800? Kevlar definately degrades. Water degrades it, and most vests are only garanteed to perform to spec for two years from manufacture. The Kevlar inserts are never washed, but are found inside a waterproof ballistic nylon cover, which in turn protects the Kevlar against abrasion and dirt, and especially moisture. These live inside a cover that turns it into something you can wear. Even the ceramic plates you get are generally covered in something like ballistic nylon too, to keep it together after a hit, and to stop damage due to minor drops.

[tdog49]

I was going to mention that in my last post---lol, completely forgot.
So all I will do is say that Jack is correct. When I sold vests to clients, the brochure on care & cleaning also mentioned that exposure to sunlight (uv) will cause degradation of the fibers, so we would tell them not to leave them out in the sun (ya know--backseat of the car--that kinda thing) Always place them back in the bag when you're done......

[Bugger]

Presumably, kevlar-containing or other types of bullet-proof vests would be rated according to the caliber of the bullets that they stop. No doubt that all of them would be able to stop at least .22 or .223 bullets. One would expect vests able to stop heavier bullets, like .303, .32, .38 or 9mm, .45, .475, and .50 (the latter ones are used to kill elephants), to have much higher price tags. I doubt that any of them would be rated to stop bullets containing explosive charges i.e. shells, or made of depleted uranium which is harder and heavier than Pb or Cu or Fe.

Besides bullet-proof vests, kevlar is also used to make objects of fiberglass i.e. glass-reinforced plastic, along with glass and nylon and mylar fibers. The fibers are embedded in a catalytic-setting plastic, usually a polyester resin, which polymerizes to a solid with the aid of a metal-soap catalyst like cobalt naphthenate (the Co salts of the carboxylic acids derived from oxidation of hydrogenated toluene or methylnaphthalene, the "naphtha" produced in oil refining). This is especially done, with molds, to make hulls and decks for small GRP boats, or on top of a wooden plank or ply hull, and shower cubicles. Such uses would appear to be inconsistent with the statement about kevlar being liable to degradation by contact with water.

Bugger.

[redbull]

well, what do you think of what I just proposed?
(The steel ball in a modified hollowpoint)

I talked to a reputible engineer, Bill Penn from the Indian Head Naval Warfare Center,
Indian Head Maryland USA, that he tested 30 year old kevlar was tested and
stayed within the NIJ specs for which it was rated. The samples were kept in storage
and not exposed to water or UV. I really cant imagine this guy's a liar, I worked in
the same installation. In fact he mentioned something about kevlar getting marginally
stronger (or was that stiffer, Im 99% sure that it was stronger but regardless it held
up). Anyway this test data represents leftovers in a gov. storage facility... about as
ideal condition old kevlar as it gets.

Also there is an ammo manufacture on the web that uses normal pressure loads
but lightweight rounds to defeat kevlar. They offer "tatical" 9mm and .40 and im
pretty sure .357 was available... I dont remember the website... their ammo was
reasobaly priced and you diddent have to be a LEO to get it.

Oh BTW, I own and carry a CZ-52 and I use Surplus ammo in it... it can defeat IIa
armor on its own. (At least exceed the rated backface deformation, if not cut through
on its own. If you buy one replace the firing pin and cheazy bakelite grips with
something nice. (Their firing pin will break if you dry fire a couple of times). I have
largely replaced it as my carry weapon with a Beretta 92FS 9mm because of the
higher magazine capacity. YAY all the Americans can bet their hi cap mag fix on
in just 4 more days!!! (Assault weapons ban expires!!!)

[tdog49]

on the subject of kevlar degredation:
ok, here we may be splitting fine hairs, and of course any rate of decay is mitigated by the quality of the kevlar in the first place. However as tough as it is, it does still wear and degrade. This is why they are usually only warranted for a specific time. You may store yours perfectly and in never wear so 20 years later it will still perform. I may crawl thru sand, mud,rocks,flames,acid--whatever and leave it in the car windshield and it will fail in 6months......Do you really want to trust an uncertain and untestable factor with your life???

When I worked as an A&P mechanic, we had a tool that would test the integrity of airplane fabric so it could tell you when to replace said fabric. If you could rig up something like that for a vest, you could store it and use it with confidence for a long time. Remember also that even a brand new vest will not stop a sharp knife.....think about all the sharp little knives that get into the fabric while you wear it....(sand etc)

Bugger: you are correct ----vests are rated by level---1,2,3,4 and so on and this tells you which bullets they should (SHOULD) stop. I am picking my own brain here and could be wrong but I believe it goes like this:
1=.22lr to 45 acp---all similar low pressure blunt tipped bullets
2=.357 mag to .44mag (maybe 454) and similar high pressure blunt bullets
3=.223 to .308 to 30-06 and similar high pressure AP type(pointed) bullets but usually not within a certain range. i.e. a .308 at 10 yards will still penetrate the front but maybe not the back (small consolation, I know)
They are also subdivided by letter---1,1a,2,2a etc
(be gentle in the criticism please, my memory is about as sharp as a .50 cal ball)

Also the style and strength of the trauma plate must be factored in. the plat e in a class 2 may stop the .308 but the rest of the vest wont....

Ok, enuff already...next subject, the hollow point thingy. I am not a fan of gimmicked ammo. I wont claim that it wont work, I'll just say "WHY?" when you can buy perfectly good stuff over the counter.....as far as improvised ammo( for those of us who cant buy it) I am a big fan of sabots. 40-60gr .223 bullets saboted into anything that will drive it to 2000 fps is going to be much more dependable than any gimmicked blunt nose bullet. There is a 30-06 load called the xcellerator (?) that pushes that .223 to 4000 +fps!! No vest will stop that.... check out what FN is doing with the 5.7x28 load.

Damn, I just re read this thing and it goes on and on. I sound like my 7th grade science teacher---blah blah blah blah--lol so it stops NOW.

[THAT Dude]

[QUOTE=tdog49] Remember also that even a brand new vest will not stop a sharp knife.....

This made me think expanding broadhead! :D
I think this general idea could be made in to a good Kevlar penetrateing
round due to the blades creating a large wound chanle.
(So maybe a bow/crossbow [with broadheads]would be good at piercing armor.)

Allso they sell steel arrow heads could be good, here is one exzample from the web, "DRAWN STEEL POINTS 20 grains, 5/16" O.D."
These are simple hollow semi blunt glue-on arrow heads.
That could be filled with lead (or what ever) and shot from a sabot with
good rezults (I think).
Or used to make steel core AP ammo, that would have the necessary weaght(,kinetic energy,mass,or what not) to push through the kevlar.

[tdog49]

I see absolutely no reason why any type of broadhead (being of reasonable sharpness) from any type of bow (say pulling 40+pounds) would not penetrate a vest with lethal results. The only exception of course would be the trauma plate itself....that might require more.

[redbull]

Im bored :rolleyes: so let me give everyone a reasonably comprehensive list
of Kevlar NIJ ratings from the good people at H.P. White Laboratories,
conviently located in Maryland... because I have to be right about something
in this thread.... :rolleyes:

THREAT LEVEL I Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.22 Cal. 40 Grain LR 6 1050 320
.25 Cal. Auto 50 Grain FMC 2 810 247
.32 Cal. Auto 71 Grain FMC 4 905 276
.380 Cal. Auto 88 Grain JHP 4 990 302
.28 Cal. Special Lead 158 Grain 6 850 259
.38 Cal. Special 158 Grain SWC 6 850 259




THREAT LEVEL II-A Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.22 Mag. 40 Grain Solid Point 6 ½ 1180 360
.38 Cal. Special 125 Grain SJHP+P 6 1028 314
.38 Cal. Special 158 Grain Lead +P 6 1090 332
.38 Cal. Special 110 Grain JHP+P 6 1235 377
.45 Cal. Auto 230 Grain M.C. 5 810 247
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
.357 Mag. 158 Grain Lead 4 1250 381
.357 Mag.158 Grain Lead SWC 4 1253 382
.41 Mag. 210 Grain Lead 8 3/8 1080 329
9MM 95 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
9MM 100 Grain JSP 4 1250 381
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 4 1090 332
9MM 115 Grain JHP 4 1160 354
9MM 147 Grain Subsonic JCE 5 1050 319
9MM 147 Grain JHP 5 1050 319
10MM 170 Grain JHP 5 1172 357
10MM 200 Grain Full Jacket TC 5 1072 327



THREAT LEVEL II Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.41 Mag. 210 Grain SP 4 1300 397
.44 Mag. 240 Grain SJSP 4 1180 360
.44 Mag. 240 Grain Lead 4 1200 366
.357 Mag. 125 Grain JHP 4 1450 442
.357 Mag. 110 Grain JHP 4 1550 473
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP 6 1395 425
.357 Mag. 158 Grain JSP-Hornady 6 1445 441
.357 Mag. 158 Grain Lead 8 3/8 1410 430
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 5 1175 358
9MM Lapua 123 Grain FMC 4 1200 366
9MM Norma 116 Grain FMJ 4 1150 351
9MM Geco 123 Grain GMC 4 1200 366
9MM Canadian 116 5 1250 381
9MM Israli 4 1200 366
9MM Cavim-FMJ 4 1110 339




THREAT LEVEL III-A Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps Velocity mps
.44 Mag. 240 Gr. SWC (Gas Checked) 6 1400 427
9MM 124 Grain FMJ 9 ½ 1400 427
9MM Canadian 116 Grain FMJ 16 1400 427
9MM Norma 116 Grain FMJ 16 1325 404
9MM Geco 123 Grain FMC 16 1310 400
9MM Lapua 123 Grain FMC 16 1445 441
9MM Israeli 16 1300 397



THREAT LEVEL III Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps
7.62 NATO Ball 150 Grain FMJ (308) 28 2750
30.06 PSP 180 Grain 24 2700
.30 Carbine 110 Grain FMJ 18 1950
12 Gauge Rifled Slug 18 1550
.223 55 Grain FMJ (5.56 MM) 20 3075
7.62 x 39 150 Grain FMJ 22 2400



THREAT LEVEL IV Barrel Length (inches) Velocity fps
30.06 A.P. 166 Grain 26 2850

[tdog49]

Don't think that I think your wrong about any of this, I'm just spoutin off my preferences and concerns.....

btw, nice rating list. I searched for one earlier but Point Blank would'nt let me in their site and I basically got bored and quit. Very nice, much more comprehensive than my list. lol...

abtw, In 3 weeks I pick up my new cz52....looking forward to it! Been wantin one for about 16 years....

[Anthony]

How strange that no mention of shotgun rounds is made until level III, and then it's a slug. IIRC even the low level vests will stop 12ga shot rounds.

[tdog49]

here is some more tables that do show 12 guage 00 buck being stopped by level 2a. Here they say to stay away from level 1 and even 2a(being the minium) and recommend 2 as the preferred starting point.

www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Protection_Levels.shtml

here is a quote about level 1:
"Early generation ballistic fibers, though bulkier, only stop fragmentation and low velocity pistol ammunition.
Sometimes PASGT army surplus flak jackets are passed off as “about Level II-A”, but in our tests 9 mm penetrated. Excellent birdshot protection, riot gear or paintball equipment, but not recommended for pistol ballistic protection."

Excellent paintball protection! LOFL LMAO!! ouch......

Interestingly enough, in direct contrast to what I was taught as a vest salesman, they do claim this:
"“NIJ tests failed to demonstrate any significant differences in 10-year-old armor, regardless of the extent of use or apparent physical condition”

“The warranty exists solely to limit the manufacturer's liability on the product and is not a reflection of the anticipated service life of the product.”


...Guide to Police Body Armor, National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center (NLECTC)"

however there is this caveat:
"In the absence of abuse such as machine washing, or ultraviolet exposure, Kevlar® is good for many, many years."

btw this is a used vest sales website

[raptor1956]

quote: "The other best way to defeat body armor is to shoot where it isn't. Face, groin, arms, legs. "

Harry's post hit the nail right on the head. For non-oz members, do some reading on our outlaw Ned Kelly. He got done in by black powder projectiles whilst wearing armour made from plow blades. They took his legs out, and finished the job off with a noose.
As far as concealability goes, any pistol's going to do the job in those circumstances as long as you can hit the target

[nbk2000]

A round ball wouldn't penetrate, as it wouldn't be focusing sufficient energy into a small enough area to break through the kevlar fibers. If a steel ball shot directly into the vest wouldn't penetrate, a steel ball in a bullet certainly wouldn't either.

[Doug]

Here are some links from www.vestguard.co.uk

Not quite as comprehensive as Redbull's posted levels, but in handy HTML form for quick reference...
NIJ Levels:
http://www.vestguard.co.uk/NIJLevels.html

PSDB Ballistic Levels (UK):
http://www.vestguard.co.uk/BallisticLevelsPSDB.html

PSDB Stab Levels (UK):
http://www.vestguard.co.uk/StabLevelsPSDB.html

[THAT Dude]

A bow, crossbow,or speargun firing a broadhead hunting arrow would make a good silent armor piercing weapon(that would be hard to trace and is easy to make or buy). Ofcorse you would still need a good backup weapon because these are slow to reload :( (and take practice).
So I thought it would be good to make expanding broadhead ammo for more standard guns.The reason for expanding broadhead is so the wound chanle will be much bigger than the projectile, and thus much more leathal than standard armor piercing ammo. :)
But I'm not shoure how this would be best accomplished :( ...ideas anyone? :confused:

[Ropik]

THAT Dude: Think about something like"Bigot", arrow for shooting from pistol(courtesy of SOE). I think you should be able to do something like this with a hollow steel broadhead and tin fins.
(Some people say that pistols for shooting with the Bigot had to be altered. Some say that it wasn't necessary. I don't know where is the truth.)

[raptor1956]

I remember reading a while back about a .40cal round called the hurricane or tornado or something like that. It was basically a stainless wadcutter with sawteeth machined into the edge of the hole. I dont know if they're being done in other calibres or not, but worth a look. There supposed to work on level II but I wouldn't think they'd do much against ceramics etc.

[THAT Dude]

I could not find this "Bigot", arrow for shooting from pistol(courtesy of SOE). Could you tell me more about it?
This looks like it might be close to what you are talking about.
http://www.gunsnstuffonline.com/index.aspx?pagename=moreinfo&uniqueid=3529988
Has anyone found anything about this hurricane round? It sounds vary odd.

[redbull]

My fellow Americans, the American Assasult Weapons Ban expired today! YAY!!!
Ok, back to the show...

Looking into the frangible ammo defeating soft kevlar issue, I found this article...
It seems like we might be onto something. NIJ is investigating the issue.



The problem with Second Chance vests is the second major product alert to surface
with ballistic vests in the past year.

In stories published in September and October 2002, Gun Week revealed a controversy
over another brand of body armor, Point Blank, produced by a firm in Florida. It is not
associated with Second Chance.

In that instance, another impromptu shooting “test” had been done by a sheriff’s
department in southern California, in which an older Point Blank vest had reportedly
been penetrated by frangible bullets fired from a 9mm police service pistol.
Simultaneously, officers in New York City began complaining about their Point Blank
vests, and the International Union of Police Associations publicly challenged the
manufacturer to “wear his own product.”

At the time, a spokesman for one body armor manufacturer called the revelation
“a huge story.”


For more information consult http://www.justnet.org/testing/frangible.html

[bipolar]

I have an CZ-52 I bought a while ago, I found a place to buy the .30 cal sabots. But I dont know anything about reloading or loading ammo. I was wondering if I need an expensive reloading press to load my own 7.62 x 25 saboted .223 armor piercing rounds or can I do it by hand? If not what do I need?

It seems like a submachine gun in this caliber would be the ultimate concealable ANTI-PIGGY weapon other than the AR-15 pistol I guess. What do yall think about the AR-15 pistol? Would it be accurate with such a short barrel. It seems like the submachine gun with armor piercing would be better because of more concealable and more ammo you can carry.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Bushmaster-Pistol/Mvc-017F.jpg

[tdog49]

Cool things about the ar15 pistol:
1. its smaller than a rifle
2. its........

bad things about the ar5 pistol:
1. its damn big for a pistol
2. you cant put a stock on it
3. that short barrel will not be a detriment to accuracy but you will lose a lot of velocity. This is a big problem. So big that the military is fielding a lot of complaints about the reduced lethality of the m4 carbine because its 14" barrel steals enough velocity from the bullet that it is taking an inordinate amount of hits per target to cause death.
4. costs too damn much!
5. the ammo wont penetrate vests any better than .223 timbs or .224 boaz or even (maybe....) the 7.62x25 and all these can be had in a much smaller package
6. mv out of this small barrel is 1700 fps as compared to 3000 fps from a 18 inch barrel. why is this important? see numbers 3 & 5

I will admit it is interesting and would be a riot to shoot, and handloading could pump the velocity up a litttle....2100 fps would be nice.....but I will now also refer you to numbers 1,2 and 4......

[john_smith]

For you guys in US...what about the .30 Carbine version of Ruger Blackhawk?

[tdog49]

ok,
here is the deal (kinda) no, I am not an expert, I read a lot and this is what you are looking for if you want to grease piggies in vests. (or sand lice)

if the bullet is----never mind-----look at the tables.
There are 4 factors that will affect penetration
1. Velocity-----speed kills
2. bullet weight
3. bullet shape
4. caliber---bullet diameter

simply put a fast spear point is more likely to penetrate than a slow brick. however (as we see with the 12 guage) a lot of weight can make up for velocity and lack of shape. however (again!) that 12 gauge slug probably wont penetrate at 50 yds while the .223 will......

so, apply the above to your favorite cartridge along with comparing velocity, weight and shape to the published tables and ( while this is simplistic in the extreme) you can get a pretty good guess ast how it will perform.

So John, ****concerning the .30 carbine****
after checking with Hogdon's site, I have obtained reloading data showing an 85 gr bullet @2400 fps to a 110 gr bullet @ 2100 fps. Now this is from a 20" test barrel. They did not have pistol data in this cartridge. Velocities will be approx 400-800 fps slower from a 6" barrel. (figure 50 fps loss for every inch) this round should penetrate nicely if you can keep velocity above 1400 fps. This would compare w/the 7.62x25 and +p+ 9mm sub gun ammo (i.e. Hirtenberger)

the 7.62x25 ranges between 1400-1600 fps w/ an 80 gr bullet
Hirtenberger loads a 124 grn @1400 fps for the 9mm parabellum. if you can get some, BUY it.........

[nbk2000]

Don't be too excited about the "penetrates a vest" report about the frangibles.

Say it penetrates the vest plus 3" of ballistic gelatin backing. What's that mean? In real terms, a projectile requires the ability to penetrate 3-4" of ballistic gelatin before it will even BREAK THROUGH THE SKIN!

Remember, skin is elastic and backed by flexible organs, not rigid like ballistic gelatin.

Now, after expending 4" of BG worth of energy just to break the skin, it still needs to penetrate at least 8" (more like a foot) to reach vital organs to kill the piggy wearing the vest.

So, in recap, frangibles aren't shit unless you blow off the pigs kevlar'd nuts. :p

[s9ar7acu3]

consider carbide. Its incredibly hard, can be ground, and fragments into extremely sharp slivers. Pie industries sells carbide flethettes that can be reloaded into a shotgun shell.

http://pie.hotusa.org/exotic.htm

Another idea for pistols would be to install a small carbide centerdrill into a high velocity lightweight pistol round like 10mm or 5.7. this could be accomplished accuratlly by using a small hobbie lathe like a sherline, taig or Prazi

An FMJ bullet securly gripped in a collet could be partially drilled out with a centerdrill of the same size as the one you plan to install. Said carbide centerdrill should then be pressed lightly into the lead thereby seating the rear flutes securly into the bullet.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=369-2205&PMPXNO=944992&PARTPG=INLMK32

[Isotoxin]

While NBK says W is somewhat exotic I have found this to have changed. For example on the well known UN site we can see 1/8th inch diameter 3.5" long solid W rods for 10$ and a quick look at the Thomas Register found many companies that sell even small orders of W rod up to 6 feet long from 1/8th to 1 inch diameter. For handgun bullets these could be cut down and a dull point ground on them and then swaged with a small hand press using powdered lead as the "packaging" medium. It would be expected but have to be proved with testing on a used vest against clay or raw meat or similar that the lead would be stripped away and the small W perpetrator would defeat the vest.

So while DU is out of our grasp W is easy to buy in exactly the right form for making KE weapons. Clearly W that isn't sintered is better then the powder you can buy in the reloading shops as the "true" metal will not tend to break up into power.

As for Teflon as far as I know it does not help defeat a vest in any way shape or form. The reason it is used is to prevent too much damage to the barrel. For amateur explosive knowledge the E&W is the best the world has ever seen but for general gun information we don't hold a candle to sites such as thehighroad.org. Luckily they can ignore us and we can learn much from them. As proof here is a thread about the "Teflon Myth":

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=120866&highlight=teflon+myth

As per my understanding(backed by reloaders on that site) thinking the Teflon has much of anything to the penetration of the bullet is as silly as thinking the sabot has anything to do with the penetration of the DU rod. It's just a carrier system and nothing more.

I hope that, with the ability to buy a few inexpensive W rods some experiments could be done with 12ga shotgun shells and PE plastic or fiberglass sabots. My(untested) idea is to take a rod and do maths to find out how best to cut it down by using our wonderful USA Army's own tank KE rounds(and related literature about them) as a general guide.

For example I would wish to know the most effective length/diameter ratio and how the fins should be shaped and such details as the matter of a thin metal or plastic coating on the KE rod itself - should it have one and if so what material?

As for fins I think it would be very impractical to try and make the rod and the fins from one large rod of W. This would be very hard to do and waste material. Instead I think a rod could have a sort of ring cut about 2mm wide and 4mm deep near one end of the rod; this would then have a tiny forward groove connecting to this ring made with a mill to prevent the fins from just spinning around the ring and making them ineffective. This would allow you to have a place where fiberglass, carbon fiber, plastic or even metal fins could "latch on" to the rod. Otherwise it would slide off. This would let you make identical fins from a mold that would obviously not damage the W rod yet not require machining W any more then you had to.

Like always testing could be done but perhaps a powerful epoxy could attach the fins instead of the fins being molded around the ring - but this might make each penetrator slightly uneven and thus make testing harder.

Then comes the perhaps easier task of researching the sabot itself and crafting a jig or mold to make them from plastic or fiberglass and then figuring out the proper powder charge, using wadding and crimping the shell. If it all works well it may be no longer then a normal slug. It would also have an amazing effect on armor; all in an easy to reproduce(once you have the jigs and materials) design with any pump or breach loading shotgun sans choke of course.

In fact, if it worked well the greatest expense of the whole project might just be buying the armor needed to test its full potential. While I have dreamed about NBK's idea of the impulse rocket scaled down for urban warfare and door breaching a sabot would at least give you the armour defeating capabilities and require less of an investment into machine tools and research then those wonderful impulse rockets.

BTW NBK - it would seem some of your posts on the impulse rocket are gone in the forum crash - I have read the patent of course but I would be very happy if you would bring up the subject again as I think it is one of the most realistic and valuable non explosive weapon ideas here - I mean it is a point and shoot 2000m/s steel rocket with minimal machining requirements and no fears of catching a face of flame like with conventional rockets! One day the cops may seriously ask suspects if they have "a rocket in your pocket?"

[nbk2000]

The problem with long-rod penetrators is the requirement for very precise sabot seperation.

If your sabot petals unevenly disengage from the penetrator in even the slightest bit, this kicks your penetrator off at a tangent from the aimpoint.

Depending on distance and velocity, the rod will then either take off on the new tangent, or impact the target off-point, greatly reducing penetration.

Also, symetrically round penetrators are now being thought of as passe'. H-rod penetrators have greater lateral strength for less weight, allowing higher velocities. :)

++++++++++=
Gy2 discussions:

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/2076-legality-casting-molds-full-auto-receivers.html?highlight=gyrojet#post34955

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/2076-legality-casting-molds-full-auto-receivers.html?highlight=gyrojet#post35015

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/pyrotechnics/457-spin-stabilised-model-rockets-5.html?highlight=gyrojet#post57881

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/improvised-weapons/642-tri-grenade-2.html?highlight=gyrojet#post12237

[Isotoxin]

Thank you NBK - sabot petal design would be difficult but with CAD and some tests having perfect seperation of the sabot might be doable.

This "H-rod" is interesting but after much googling I can find nothing at all! It seems "hrod" is some sort of non english word but nothing about KE weapons. Do you have a more specific search term for me?

[30yearstoolate!]

I remember a weapon that could penetrate body armor not from the projectile used but the sheer number of projectiles fired. This weapon was known as the American-180. The high fire rate could literaly cut through vests and with very little recoil it could be very easily handled by smaller personal.

This is quoted from the website where there is a wealth of other info on this gun.

http://www.american180.com/history/index.html

Ironically, this same intimidating 1500 rounds per minute (1800 rounds per minute when chambered for .22 short magnum) pounding action of the American 180, which could easily demolish a cinder block wall, also had the power to defeat most soft body armor that certain prison guards wear. For this reason, some State Penitentiaries retired the American 180 shortly after they were acquired.:D

But I have gone off topic.

With an ammunition that has a hollow point, theoretically could you put in a small titanium core? Like a portion of a titanium bolt. If inserted inside the hollowpoint it should make it through the vest. Or would a heavier metal work better? Such as cast iron.

I would think energy of the impact of the round has as much to do with the round's material for penetration.

A low energy round made of a hard heavy metal has just as small of a chance of penetration as a high energy round made of solid lead. Penetration is almost always a combination of the two.

-----My two cents

[nbk2000]

H-rod penetrators can be found in a presentation on the NDIA archives at:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/

The specific year and name of the file are long forgotten, but that's where I found out about it.

There's enough stuff there to keep your brain buzzing for months. :)

[Isotoxin]

Damn NBK - that site makes GlobalSecurity look like the kewl's text files by comparision! I am deeply impressed with it. From a small look around I can already see charts and even pictures showing how hot each part of the munition gets in the air and all sorts of wonderful things - even an overview of the electronics. Hopefully I can find the H rod part.

With an ammunition that has a hollow point, theoretically could you put in a small titanium core? Like a portion of a titanium bolt.

If you yourself understand that penetration requires KE then why would you suggest such a low density metal instead of say a ball of tungsten shot or even a small steel ball bearing? Perhaps I am missing something here but I don't see how titanium or cast iron are good choices at all.

[festergrump]

With an ammunition that has a hollow point, theoretically could you put in a small titanium core? Like a portion of a titanium bolt. If inserted inside the hollowpoint it should make it through the vest.
If you were to attempt to roll your own AP rounds by inserting something into a HP cavity it probably won't penetrate since the KE is going to peel the weight right off the bullet like a banana peel when it hits the armour leaving nothing to punch the steel through. You'd need to be able to cast your own projectiles complete with a hardened steel core with a high Rockwell temper rating, a lead or other heavy soft medium surrounding that (for bore protection an weight), and finally a copper jacket to minimize expansion. All that while keeping it's weight ratio completely asymetrical from core out for stability in flight...

Definitely think FMJ for penetration, though, keeping KE as your close friend.

Another thing about steel core ammo, though:

Many people have already conducted testing of the milsurp steel core FMJ "non-AP" ammo from combloc countries and found penetration to be similar to that of regular lead core. They used steel as core for the bullet as it was cheaper than lead at the time of production, but the steel was not in a hardened state. So, merely adding a steel core isn't even going to guarantee the job on anything armoured, vest or otherwise, unless the armour was already penetrable by it's all-lead core brother of the same caliber. (7.62 x 39 against regular class I piggie armour, for example). :D

[nbk2000]

I wonder if it'd be possible to use an induction coil to harden the steel core of the bullet, making it hard enough to act as an AP core.

Naturally, the bullet would have to first be pulled prior to induction heating.

Or maybe not.

If the powder doesn't go up high enough to actually touch the bullet, and you keep the neck of the case cold, then maybe you could get away with hardening just the tip of the steel core?

I'm guessing he's going with the hardness of titanium being used to breach a softer barrier, with the lead providing the mass for penetration.

[tacmedic13]

the standard vest issued down here is IIIA, and we use extra trauma plates.

[festergrump]

The standard vest issued down here is IIIA, and we use extra trauma plates.
Really? Who's WE if I might be so bold to ask?

Regardless of who you meant by "WE", T. Medic, schedule IIIa with multiple trauma plates wont stop everything all the time. The IIIa vest only protects up to a .44 mag handgun round, IIRC, so the .308 that overly hyped-up tacticool sniper ninja-piggie brethren aim at us civies from safe and hidden distances while praying for a kill order will easily do the job under most circumstances. And at closer range as I would more likely be, If I can drill that trauma plate once or twice then I'm gonna get them with my third, right in the vitals, if I were so inclined. But I'd be even more inclined to just take out their grape with one shot, anyway, or knock their ass over with a good one to the chest then go to work on their legs to draw the rest of the pork out of cover for some good old hypothetical fun... But all that is neither here nor there as what I would do hypothetically speaking is not within context of this thread.

But I must ask a question since you sparked my curiosity, even if it is off topic. Assuming you are indeed a medic (guessing from your namesake) and not PORK and still feel you require the layer of protection a scedule IIIa vest actually does offer, why not just move to a better area to perform your service to society? I would.

Only sociopaths and niggers shoot unarmed medics because they don't care or don't know better, respectively. Why shoot YOU when you cause no threat? My guess is you'd wear a vest as a medic because you work in areas with more niggers than sociopaths, so...

Me, I'd only feel the need for a vest if and when the pork comes around "post catastrophy New Orleans style" to collect up all the guns from self-sufficient surviving citizens. MOLON LABE! After such an event you could bet I'd wear one if I had one. Knowing I could kill all my enemies who also wear one with an AKM, SKS, or similar; trauma plates or not, well that's something to hold near and dear.

-------------------------------
Now, back on topic:

While browsing thru the copy of "Firearms Identification, volume I, second addition" which Dankstavegas was kind enough to upload to Rapidshare, I noticed they made mention of solid turned or cast steel bullets...

They mention it for it's ballistic identification problems, but I see some better potential here for hardening the entire projectile and seating it within the charged and primed casing with a simple reloading press. They even mention briefly the option of a PAPER jacket to ensure the proper spin from the rifling (and to protect it somewhat, I suppose. I just skimmed the book sectionally, though).

It'll eventually wreak some serious damage to the lands of your rifling after some use, no doubt, but are you gonna want to keep that barrel around after you penetrate a piggy's vest, anyway? Likely the whole weapon will be disposed of, as weapons are a tool, and tools leave telltale marking on objects when they are used, much to the criminal user's chagrin.

Easy, affordable (with the common but right garage tooling), and very penetrating.

I'd take note of the LA Bank-robber's folly of "over penetration" and stagger my rounds accordingly to ensure I maim/kill/remove-from-opposition whatever with doubletaps, though, since we're always speaking hypothetically...

[abouali]

The Ultimate Combat Pistol (UCP) uses special small-caliber,the 4.6x30mm ammunition is loaded with spitzer-pointed, all-steel bullet with brass jacket. Bullet weight is 1.6 gramm (25 grains) and the muzzle velocity is 725 m/s (ca. 2400 fps). Manufacturer claims the 100% penetration of the CRISAT body armour (1.6mm of Titanium plus 20 layers of Kevlar) at the distance of 200 meters.

http://www.world.guns.ru/smg/smg49-e.htm

[A.C.E.]

The idea of hardening the steel core of a factory made bullet is very interesting. However I think there are some things that have to be considered:

First, the melting point of the other metals in the bullet. One would have to make sure that it is higher than the hardening temp for the steel used in the core.

Second, heat expansion. If the different metals used in the bullet have different heat expansion rates, then the core and the jacket would end up having different sizes when heated. I'm not sure exactly how this would affect the bullet but I can't imagine that it would be good either for accuracy or for the gunbarrel.



I think discarding sabot is the best way to make an AP round for a rifle.

I know there is sub caliber sabot ammo for sniper rifles cal. 7.62X51 (.308W). I haven't been able to find a good picture of its cross section but the sabot is made of plastic and aluminium. One of these round will easily penetrate any body armor normally worn by law enforcement, and most LAVs as well.

[Cobalt.45]

Remington still makes their "Accelerator" ammo for 30-30 and 30-06. It's a sabot-ed .223 round, 55 gr. in a standard case.

Using a bullet extractor, remove the sabot. Toss the soft nose 55 gr bullet in favor of a like- diameter AP slug of your choice. Re seat with the sabot.

Go for as much length as possible for more weight and a better ballistic co-efficient.

These sabots can be used in any .30 cal. round.

And as a bonus, if the sabot itself isn't recovered by the forensic lab folks, the bullet is untraceable to the weapon that fired it.

[nbk2000]

Well, if you're going to go through all the trouble of pulling bullets, you might as well do it right and swap out the pristine bullet for one that you've recovered from a firing range, to totally FUBAR any attempt at a ballistics match.

After all, if the bullet is pristine, they'll know it was saboted, and search for the sabot. If the bullet is marked up by barrel rifling, why would they bother looking for a sabot?

How many people have ever been caught using pre-fired saboted rounds?

How many pigs would think to check for such a thing?

Probably close to zero for both.

Oh, and you can paper patch a bullet, instead of using a plastic sabot. The paper burns and disintegrates in flight, leaving NOTHING to find, even if they knew to look for it. :p

'Tacmedic' sounds something similar like 'Tactical Team Medic'. Hmmm, pork? Anyways...

Teflon was originally added to the KTW bullets, not to aid penetration by any kind of lubricating effect (zero, BTW), but by 'grabbing' onto a sloped surface that it might otherwise richochet off of, allowing it to bite into the target and penetrate.

Anyways, when dealing with SWAT piggies, follow the three F's:

Frag 'em, Flame 'em, and Flee 'em.

:D

Attached is a copy of another boards discussion on the subject. Turns out that the gaming community has some interest in our subject matter, too. :)

[Cobalt.45]

Inertia- type bullet "pullers" (remover would be more accurate) are very easy. Bullet in, head screwed on, strike bullet end down on your bench, like a hammer. Of course, getting a puller in the first place does complicate things.

I like the idea of an already fired bullet. Finding an armor piercing one in good enough shape might be a challenge.

If you were looking in a range used by paramilitary, etc. you might score. A dodge could be that you're "mining" lead for reloading, I suppose...

The techs would be confused, alright. Bound to raise eyebrows when pulled out of dude's chest- that is if there's enough bullet left to analyze. But they'd never match it up, and that's what counts.

Wonder what's the best way to keep a bullet from being matched to the barrel that fired it (Besides destroying it)? Maybe this could be raised on another thread someday.

[abouali]

GSh-18 was developed as a military sidearm, capable to defeat current body armour.To achieve good penetration, designers of KBP first developed a special, very hot version of the 9x19mm Luger / Parabellum round, with light and fast bullet with hardened steel core (4.2 gram @ 600 meters per second, or 65 grains @ 1970 fps), called 9mm PBP. PBP ammo can penetrate 8mm plate of mild steel at 20 meters, or any Class III bulletproof vest at the same range.
http://www.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg111-e.htm

[megalomania]

In the defense industry there is a saying, “a dollar of offense beats ten dollars of defense.” Meaning, for every $10 million spent on defensive technology, it only takes $1 million to counter that offensively. This is why any body armor is eventually doomed to failure as it is a very expensive game of one-upmanship to maintain.

[tacmedic13]

Close nbk , but no, I am an SRT medic, in an area filled with thugs, and wanna be thugs who shoot at anything that moves.

Don't quote whole posts. It's a bannable offense.

Also, grammer and i/I. I highlighted the offending mistakes. Next time is the last time.

[nbk2000]

Mega:

Especially when you consider that, until body armor covers the body (literally) head-to-toe, there will always be a soft spot to target.

And it'd better be fire proof.

Oh, and air-tight.

And impervious to fragmentation and blast.

Directional energy weapons....etc. etc.

:D :p

[Jacks Complete]

Hey, I think NASA have something like that. Shame you can't actually walk in it!

People shoot medics to steal the morphine, and to eliminate witnesses, both the patient and the medic themselves.

Jumping back a ways, shotguns are always tested from 2 feet with birdshot, as closer than that they act like a slug, and tear through the vest. A 1A vest will stop BB or smaller at 2 feet, but likely fail the trauma rating. Beyond 5 yards I'd say you would be fine. With something like SG, where the balls are about .38 calibre, I'd suggest that at a distance of 5 yards your vest would withstand that if it would withstand a .38.

If you have a lathe, then turning your own bullets is about as easy a task as you will ever have. Use drill rod, and simply use a running head to support it, then shape and part, and repeat. Harden the drill rod afterwards. Or use stainless (or exotic) rod and a carbide tool.

The HK PDW (now MP-7) 4.6mm x 30mm rounds (http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/ai.cgi?sn=ppPaIERpDa&catid=359=fVtkcOvsxP) were designed specifically as low impulse pistol rounds that would beat the CRISAT (Soviet) body armour at 200 yards, so that tankers and REMFs could have something more useful than the current 9mm or .45, which would be useless in a fight, even if they could hit the target. Combined with the extensible stock and red dot sight, it's a step change.

Production of such a tiny round for military only use was impossible with standard punched methods, so it was decided that greater accuracy and flexibility could be achieved using a center-feed CNC lathe. The correct rod could be installed and the bullet heads turned out at speed.

Materials tested included tungsten, steel, stainless steel, titanium, various copper alloys and even some ceramics. The best results came from bronze, AFAIK. Hard enough to count, heavy enough to reach. (Recall that the CRISAT spec is 1.6mm of titanium plate backed by 20 layers of Kevlar weave)

[vizionar]

In my experience through war in ex-Yugoslavia best assault rifle is AK74. Ammo 5.45x39.5 is capable get trough all police and military buletproof vests with ceramic plates.

They have air pocket that destabilizes the bullet on contact and steel core like needle.
;)

[Alexires]

I don't know alot about body armour and penetration, but here is my two cents worth.

What about case hardening a steel round? A steel round that has been hardened by dipping it in extremely fine carbon powder when it is hot. Fill it with lead, and it might act as a kind of injector for the liquid hot lead on impact.

I have absolutely no idea, just a thought.

[teshilo]

As about real explosive bullet used by german in WW1.Not hollow or tipped dum-dum.These bullets contain miniature primary explosive charge and striker with spring...In our time can use combined action after explosive placed teflon coated needle. After strike in target needle got impulse from explosive..

[Syke]

Im pretty sure I saw on discovery that the swat piggies have no protection on their armpits so buckshot on the left arm is alost a guaranteed kill since it passes into the heart. Or buckshot to the head because the pigs helmets will cave and deform literally crushing their brain.

[nbk2000]

Buckshot will have almost no effect against the PASGT-type kevlar helmets that the SWAT pigs wear.

Though the under-arm gap is indeed a vulnerable spot, getting a flanking shot from below their armpits would be difficult, since they're moving and presenting face-forward towards your likely hiding spots.

You could shoot through their arms to reach the vitals in the torso, but newer vests have shoulder pads that come down over the arm to prevent that.

[Syke]

Theres always kneecaps:D Like you were saying about the LA bank robbers the best way to beat armor is to shoot where it isnt.

[5_seven]

If the round doesn't penetrate, there's always blunt force trauma (I think that's what it's called), where the bullet doesn't go through, but the impact is still felt. A large round would surely hurt enough to incapacitate the target long enough for you to get close and hit a vital area that has no protection :D

[Ropik]

Yeah, but the problem is that there is never *one* enemy. Everybody likes to have deck stacked in his favour, right?

Besides that, vests used by SWAT and such have a heavy duty trauma plates. For example, slug from a 12 ga. shotgun can easily kill somebody in a normal BP vest even if no Kevlar layer is penetrated - simply, as you mentioned, by a massive blunt trauma - crushed sternum is not very good for your health.

I know a cop who, wearing a SWAT-type vest, was shot from ten meters away with a slug from a 12. shotty. The slug fractured the vest's outer ceramic plate, cracked three of cop's ribs, knocked him flat on the ground and winded him. However, he was able to draw a handgun and shot the attacker dead when he was cocking the shotgun for a second shot.

Draw the conclusion yourself.

[5_seven]

Well anyone that wants to take a shot at SWAT needs a psychiatrist.
As for the cop, if the guy had a semi automatic, the officer would've had bigger problems than a coupled cracked ribs.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Obviously it'd be difficult to hit a person in the same area as a previous hit unless you're using full-auto. But, for up close and unfriendly personal conflict resolution, full-auto is a good thing...IF you can control it and not spray wildly. It's not difficult at all to hold tight groups with a semi-auto, or even a full-auto if you fire in short bursts, or are using a 5.56 which has NO recoil(think m4a1, colt commander, m16, etc etc)

Though I doubt you'd be able to get hold of a Five seveN.
... Armor piercing bullets are also coated with teflon for less resistance.You can get a hold of a five-seven easily and legally, but the armor penetrating armor is not available to civilians, that'd be SS190, we can only get SS109. As for lubing your rounds, you'd want moly(molybdenum disulfide, I think I spelled it correctly) coated rounds.


Level IIIA? That's very high threat level armor, capable of stopping some rifle bullets. The Tokarev is capable of penetating most vests, but a level IIIA would be border line I'd think. Though solid steel core would penetrate the best.
No, it's not. See http://freedom.broken-irc.net/NIJ-STD-010104.pdf for the testing standards for bulletproof vests.


In order to work properly, a rod must be fired from a NON-rifled barrel. Any errors in axial alingment would be greatly amplified by the very high rotational forces exerted by rifling on a projectile. Bullets spin at over 100,000RPM.

This is why tank guns are smooth bore. In our case, using a geometric penetrator would simply the task since the shape would act like natural fins, saving the added effort of machining them.No, a tank barrel is smooth bore because rifling can only effectively/efficiantly apply stabilization to projectiles of a certain length:diameter ratio, and tank rounds are just too big. Better results are seen with aerodynamically stabilized projectiles.

You're overthinking(and underthinking) this situation. If you're firing your weapon at someone wearing a vest, then the shit has hit the fan. You aren't going to have the opportunity to use poison, because 99 times out of 100 your target have the ability to return fire. So, forget poison, it's not for this application, and it sounds rather k3wlish when you look at the feasibility.

So let's look at this.

Problem: You're shooting at someone wearing a vest. He's most likely armed, and he may or may not be firing at you already, and might have you overpowered.

Solutions:

1) Fire tight groups into the chest while advancing, get a headshot when you can. I don't care what hes wearing, hes still going to be feeling those rounds behind the vest, see http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm for what I mean. And, you might manage to punch through if your groups are tight enough.

2) Systematically disable your target, and advance as possible. Fire at what's exposed: arms, legs, the head. And again, if you've got a clear shot to the chest, take one or two. Wind the fucker, because it makes it much harder for him to return fire.

3) USE A RIFLE! I'm sorry, but a pistol is no match to a rifle, save few circumstances. And don't go full auto unless you're within 40 meters(actually, at any distance that you can't hold each round on a silhouette of a target) because otherwise you won't hit what you're shooting at very reliably. Well placed shots always beat shots that don't even go near your target.


You'll also do much better using standard self defense rounds with reliable, tested ballistics and penetration. I'm a real fan of Hornady TAP rounds( http://hornady.com/ ), cor-bon rounds, and for .40 s&w you can't go wrong with 180 grain Remington "Golden Sabers". Hot loads, but a double tap will put anyone on their ass, vest or no vest.


Also, it just occured to me that your target is dynamic in a way that can work for you. A vest isn't going to be doing your target much good if it's exposing it's side to you, as in a Weaver stance, which is what I personally use and is very popular(although the "modern" isosceles stance is gaining popularity again)... because there's little protection offered there, and if you hit someones rib cage with a heavy round there, they're going to get winded, or end up with cracked ribs.


PS: You aren't rambo, and you're going to need to reload. Practice, practice, practice.

[nbk2000]

Succinylcholine Chloride is a very effective poison for use in bullets, as it paralyzes the extremities within seconds, and stops respiration within a minute.

Load buckshot pellets with this, skip fire it under their cars, and give 'em a minute to die. :)

Teflon and Moly have ZERO to do with vest penetration. Lubrication has no bearing on penetration. The hardness, geometery, and velocity of the penetrator DOES.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

One minute is much longer than needed to catch a bullet in the chest. Teflon has nothing to do with it, but moly does.

I was at a range about a year back with a friend, and there was a guy there with his chronograph. Naturally, we went over and spoke to him. He invited us to shoot with him, and we gladly excepted. That day I fired 15 rounds of 180gr, .40 Hornady TAP rounds out of a glock 23, and got an average muzzle velocity of 955FPS, slightly higher than I should have gotten ( hornady claims 950FPS. ).

Then, the guy (I think his name was Tim) asked if we wanted to try moly coating some of our rounds. I said sure, and he proceeded to apply moly to the exposed portion of about 30 rounds. After he was done, I reloaded my mag, and went through a clip again, and got an average velocity of 1150FPS, a good 200FPS faster than I was supposed to be getting.

Now, I'm too lazy to do real math right now, so I'll do this slightly ghetto. Hornady claims 361FLBS @ 950FPS(muzzle), 326 @ 903(50 yards), and 297 @ 862(100 yards).

((361 / 950) + (326 / 903) + (297 / 862)) / 3 = an average of .361855 footpounds per FPS the round was fired at.

Given that, my rounds went from ~361 foot pounds of energy, to ~416.13325 foot pounds. Granted, this is an inaccurate measurement(well, technically a computation, not even a measurement), but it's close enough to what real world figures would be.

That does have something to do with vest penetration. I'm sure you could get better results with handloads and fully coated rounds, not to mention moving up to 280gr in .45 ACP... although, there's a larger surface area there, so it might not do any better. Increasing the barrel length from 4 inches to 4.5 or 5 would increase velocity some more, and thus energy put into a .40 calibur circumference. You could also up the weight of your projectile, I've seen a .40 USP tactical(5 inch barrel) take 26 280gr rounds without a failure @ a steady 910FPS, or a kaboom... and Tim just grinned at us.

Go german engineering, eh?

[nbk2000]

Does an extra 300FPS make any difference in the penetration capability of a FMJ .45ACP round against a vest?

No.

Because that just means that the bullet gets flattened out all that more quickly.

Your bullet has to be capable of penetrating the vest by being HARD enough and SHARP enough to break through the weave and not deform while doing so.

Only after those two problems are covered do you then come to the matter of pushing it FAST enough to do so.

Also, please notice the mention I made of paralysis of the extremitites in seconds caused by SC. In less than 10 seconds, all motor functions to the limbs (arms/legs) ceases, rendering the victim unable to stand or move.

It takes a minute to stop their breathing, but they'll be helpless far quicker than that.

Watch the end of the LA Bank Robbers. If the cops had been shooting such bullets, the gun fight would have been over before it even begun.

Remember when Emil was hiding behind the car and shooting at the cops? It took a couple minutes for him to give up, even after being shot multiple times in the feet and legs. Not so with SC bullets.

RTPB "Poison your weapons"

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Hrm, I can see your point. If you were doing handloading you could easily make a mold so you'd have consistant projectile shape(and consistant feeding in your weapon), and you could choose your metal.

As for poison, it's still not a real viable solution, what if you have to take a shot within 10 feet and end up breathing some of it in yourself?

Personally, I would have dealt with the target behind the cover of a vehicle situation by pumping a few mags into the gas tank, or using effective tactics such as advancing fire w/ covering fire. I don't know the exact angle the engagement was in, but if I had to guess, and he was smart, he had an engine block inbetween him and bullets, so flanking would have been an option too.

edit: I also want to say, while the first FMJ might not penetrate, subsequent rounds may, and if not, I still wanna see someone up and walking/operating their weapon after taking ~416.13325+ footpounds of energy to the chest, multiple times. Thats easily enough to crack ribs behind a 3a vest, and turn a level 4 trauma plate into little pieces/dust(or shrapnel! Spall damage, anyone?)

[oregon-machinist]

shoot where there is no Armor is the most logical.

All references to exotic ammo or weapons negates one reality check:

You are always going to shoot "the weapon you have".

As far as where to shoot upon a target, most speak of the head shot as effective.

It is, but few think of how hard that is to actually hit.

A target Five Times the size and very unprotected is the area of the Groin & Thighs.

First as a target area any hit will attract the bad guys attention!

Next, medically speaking there are some major arteries for bleedout, and Femor arteries can bleed out in just a few minutes without intervention, and destruction of the femur or hip is a major stoppage factor.

The fact that said target is more likely to be stationary exists as well, heads bob & weave during firefights, the stated target area does not move as much.

And if you have struck the target within that zone, their mobility is greatly reduced, as compared to a grazed head for example, moving with a grazed thigh will be extremely painfull, the muscle groups will be in shock.

As far as creating a projectile to penetrate body armor itself, I would suggest a small lathe, a BRONZE projectile and the conical tip as was seen in the photograph.

Bronze would be easy on the barrel, lighter weight so it could be pushed faster; and has been proven out in actual use by some people who wanted to do a withdraw from an armored car...

The Brennke Shape shotgun slug in Bronze, penetrated armored glass (windshield) killing the driver, and allowing a small group of money collectors to help themselves!

That would be my choices in survival of a firefight.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Bronze would be easy on the barrel, lighter weight so it could be pushed faster; and has been proven out in actual use by some people who wanted to do a withdraw from an armored car...Use a handgun with polygonal rifling like a glock or a H&K USP, the USP can take some serious abuse from hot loads, but the glock needs an aftermarket barrel for that because of its unsupported chamber in the 6 oclock position(not a bad thing, helps it feed, but glock says not to use hot loads in their weapons because of the barrel).

[nbk2000]

Knowing the basics helps:

http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/bullet1.htm

And I believe that most machined AP bullets are made from brass, not bronze, though both are used.

How on earth you figure on breathing in the poison from an encapsulated round? :confused:

It's not like I'd be using as buffer powder for shotshells. :p

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

nbk: I'm well aware of the basics, I just was thinking in a different mindset. And, if you fire, and its a through and through, and strikes a wall, thats bad mojo. If you miss and strike a wall, that's bad mojo.

Also, I want to point out that brass ammunition doesn't fire well from polygonally rifled barrels, if you do make handloads, keep this in mind. Brass jacketed ammunition also gives shit accuracy out of every weapon I've ever fired them out of, so I assume the same would be true of an all brass round. Anyways, wouldn't brass be a bad decision because of how soft it is?

[nbk2000]

Brass and bronze are alloys, just like steel. And, just like steel, the alloys composition determines its properties.

The brass used in a THV bullet is not the same used in making the casing, or a candles